Discussion:
Doing The Math - World Can't Mine Copper Fast Enough For EV/Renewable Targets
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68hx.1808
2024-05-17 02:01:50 UTC
Permalink
https://techxplore.com/news/2024-05-copper-fast-electrify.html

Report shows copper can't be mined fast enough to electrify the US

Copper cannot be mined quickly enough to keep up with
current U.S. policy guidelines to transition the country's
electricity and vehicle infrastructure to renewable energy,
according to a University of Michigan study.

The Inflation Reduction Act, signed into law in 2022, calls
for 100% of cars manufactured to be electric vehicles by
2035. But an electric vehicle requires three to five times
as much copper as an internal combustion engine vehicle—not
to mention the copper required for upgrades to the electric
grid.

"A normal Honda Accord needs about 40 pounds of copper. The
same battery electric Honda Accord needs almost 200 pounds
of copper. Onshore wind turbines require about 10 tons of
copper, and in offshore wind turbines, that amount can more
than double," said Adam Simon, U-M professor of earth and
environmental studies.

"We show in the paper that the amount of copper needed is
essentially impossible for mining companies to produce."

The study examined 120 years of global data from copper
mining companies, and calculated how much copper the U.S.
electricity infrastructure and fleet of cars would need
to upgrade to renewable energy.

. . .

Politicians don't know science and often invent 'math'
designed to suit their political purposes. Almost none
of the electorate knows they're being scammed.

For quite awhile the UK had this wonderful plan to
replace gas heating with electric ... until someone
finally did some math and determined they've have
to at least double the capacity of the power grid -
beyond unaffordable in any sane time-scale.
R Kym Horsell
2024-05-17 03:47:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by 68hx.1808
https://techxplore.com/news/2024-05-copper-fast-electrify.html
Report shows copper can't be mined fast enough to electrify the US
Extractive mentality.

At least 80% of all copper ever mined is still avaialble for use.
--
Floods in south Brazil have displaced 600,000 - here's why this region is
likely to see ever more extreme rain in future
Yahoo News UK, 16 May 2024 17:28Z
Flying rivers' of moist air from the Amazon combined with a warming planet
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Heat records are falling across South Florida -- and it's only May
WaPo, 16 May 2024 17:37Z
Key West registered a heat index of 115 -- matching its highest on record.
More record heat is forecast.

[Reliable Coal!]
Alabama coal mine keeps digging after hundreds of fines and a fatal explosion
WBHM, 27 Apr 2024 12:14Z
Following the death of a grandfather, Crimson Oak Grove Resources has left a
community afraid for their homes and lives. ...
68hx.1808
2024-05-17 03:58:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Kym Horsell
Post by 68hx.1808
https://techxplore.com/news/2024-05-copper-fast-electrify.html
Report shows copper can't be mined fast enough to electrify the US
Extractive mentality.
At least 80% of all copper ever mined is still avaialble for use.
Ummm ... THINK ! It's *IN USE* for OTHER stuff.

But fanatics never think .....
R Kym Horsell
2024-05-17 04:36:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by 68hx.1808
Post by R Kym Horsell
Post by 68hx.1808
https://techxplore.com/news/2024-05-copper-fast-electrify.html
Report shows copper can't be mined fast enough to electrify the US
Extractive mentality.
At least 80% of all copper ever mined is still avaialble for use.
Ummm ... THINK ! It's *IN USE* for OTHER stuff.
But fanatics never think .....
You just assumed again. Are you ever right about anything?

We keep track of e.g. demolition waste.
About 10% of demo waste is metal. About 5% of that is copper.
Based on published demo waste for key countries we find the
total copper thrown in the bin by countries as around 2000 (prob more now)
was:

Country Waste Copper (Mt/yr)
US 39.7
Japan 35.9
Italy 10
UK 7.25
Netherlands 0.58
Canada 0.21
TOTAL 93.6

World demand for copper is "only" 28 Mt/yr.
--
Hurricane Erin 2001-- disappeared nr greenland
Loading Image...

Hurricane Igor 2010. Reached Greenland.
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68hx.1808
2024-05-17 06:22:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Kym Horsell
Post by 68hx.1808
Post by R Kym Horsell
Post by 68hx.1808
https://techxplore.com/news/2024-05-copper-fast-electrify.html
Report shows copper can't be mined fast enough to electrify the US
Extractive mentality.
At least 80% of all copper ever mined is still avaialble for use.
Ummm ... THINK ! It's *IN USE* for OTHER stuff.
But fanatics never think .....
You just assumed again. Are you ever right about anything?
Yes, all of the time.

While YOU are WRONG 100% of the time.
Post by R Kym Horsell
We keep track of e.g. demolition waste.
About 10% of demo waste is metal. About 5% of that is copper.
Based on published demo waste for key countries we find the
total copper thrown in the bin by countries as around 2000 (prob more now)
Country Waste Copper (Mt/yr)
US 39.7
Japan 35.9
Italy 10
UK 7.25
Netherlands 0.58
Canada 0.21
TOTAL 93.6
World demand for copper is "only" 28 Mt/yr.
Um ... did you READ the original title/subject
stuff ???

It's not what we have NOW - it's what US/Euro
govt policies DEMAND in the short term for
electrification/low-carbon purposes. CAN'T
DO IT - not even close.

Now if you want to donate all the wires and
pipes in your house ........ :-)
R Kym Horsell
2024-05-17 09:54:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by 68hx.1808
Post by R Kym Horsell
Post by 68hx.1808
Post by R Kym Horsell
Post by 68hx.1808
https://techxplore.com/news/2024-05-copper-fast-electrify.html
Report shows copper can't be mined fast enough to electrify the US
Extractive mentality.
At least 80% of all copper ever mined is still avaialble for use.
Ummm ... THINK ! It's *IN USE* for OTHER stuff.
But fanatics never think .....
You just assumed again. Are you ever right about anything?
Yes, all of the time.
...

Bzzt.

<https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s101130050006>
Sustainable metal management exemplified by copper in the USA
C. Zeltner, H-P Bader, et al
Regional Environmental Change, v1 p31-46 (1999)
The copper fluxes of the 20th century have contributed to the formation of
two new ore deposits of the same order of magnitude as the currently still
available reservoir (90 million tons), i.e. copper stock in consumption
products (approx. 70 million tons) and in landfills (approx. 40 million
tons). The "landfill", therefore, contains copper whose potential use is
lost due to dilution. The long-term copper consumption stock is greater
than the short-term stock. Scenarios show that the current economically
mineable Cu-stocks will be exhausted in 30 to 50 years if a change in the
existing management system does not occur.


This is the classic paper on "copper wastage". You just assume most copper
mined in in "*IN USE*". Nope. 40% is tossed into landfill.
IOW of the ~30 Mt mined each year houses are buildings and other things
are torn down and 12 Mt of copper goes back into the ground where
it becomes harder to extract over time than copper is to process.
As the old song says "there's a hole in the bucket" and isnt that
just like the wasteful and lazy human race we have all come to love?

Over the past 10ky about 1 Gt of copper has been mined of which
400 Mt is now buried in dumps and landfills around the world.
--
[Incompetent people never ack their own errors so dont know they
need to read more:]
Kruger and Dunning argue that for a given skill, incompetent people will:
1. tend to overestimate their own level of skill;
2. fail to recognize genuine skill in others;
3. fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;
4. recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, only if
they can be trained to substantially improve [their own performance].
Dunning later drew an analogy with anosognosia in which a person who
suffers a physical disability because of brain injury seems unaware of
or denies the existence of the disability, even for dramatic
impairments such as blindness or paralysis.
Dunning & Kruger & others concluded that the root cause is that, in
contrast to high performers, "poor performers do not learn from
feedback suggesting a need to improve".
Ehrlinger, Joyce; Johnson, Kerri; Banner, Matthew; Dunning, David;
Kruger, Justin (2008). "Why the unskilled are unaware: Further
explorations of (absent) self-insight among the incompetent".
Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes 105 (105): 98-121.
68hx.1808
2024-05-18 03:01:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Kym Horsell
Post by 68hx.1808
Post by R Kym Horsell
Post by 68hx.1808
Post by R Kym Horsell
Post by 68hx.1808
https://techxplore.com/news/2024-05-copper-fast-electrify.html
Report shows copper can't be mined fast enough to electrify the US
Extractive mentality.
At least 80% of all copper ever mined is still avaialble for use.
Ummm ... THINK ! It's *IN USE* for OTHER stuff.
But fanatics never think .....
You just assumed again. Are you ever right about anything?
Yes, all of the time.
...
Bzzt.
<https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s101130050006>
Sustainable metal management exemplified by copper in the USA
C. Zeltner, H-P Bader, et al
Regional Environmental Change, v1 p31-46 (1999)
The copper fluxes of the 20th century have contributed to the formation of
two new ore deposits of the same order of magnitude as the currently still
available reservoir (90 million tons), i.e. copper stock in consumption
products (approx. 70 million tons) and in landfills (approx. 40 million
tons). The "landfill", therefore, contains copper whose potential use is
lost due to dilution. The long-term copper consumption stock is greater
than the short-term stock. Scenarios show that the current economically
mineable Cu-stocks will be exhausted in 30 to 50 years if a change in the
existing management system does not occur.
This is the classic paper on "copper wastage". You just assume most copper
mined in in "*IN USE*". Nope. 40% is tossed into landfill.
YOU gonna dig out every strand ??? Nope. Not remotely
enough yield for the effort. Same goes for a lot of
other 'wasted' metals/minerals. More energy/effort
to recover.
Post by R Kym Horsell
IOW of the ~30 Mt mined each year houses are buildings and other things
are torn down and 12 Mt of copper goes back into the ground where
it becomes harder to extract over time than copper is to process.
As the old song says "there's a hole in the bucket" and isnt that
just like the wasteful and lazy human race we have all come to love?
Over the past 10ky about 1 Gt of copper has been mined of which
400 Mt is now buried in dumps and landfills around the world.
Well, get your little spade and GO AT IT ...

I'll re-iterate about non-thinking fanatics.

As for humans being "lazy" - that's at least
partially true ... and it's not gonna change.
Besides, laziness is the mother of all invention ...

Remember when you had to get OUT of the Lay-z-Boy
and physically TURN A KNOB on the TV to get another
channel ? :-)

Sorry, your eco-fascist "green targets" are NOT
gonna be met, not even close, and pure logistics
will be one of the main reasons.
R Kym Horsell
2024-05-18 03:51:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Kym Horsell
Post by 68hx.1808
Post by R Kym Horsell
Post by 68hx.1808
Post by R Kym Horsell
Post by 68hx.1808
https://techxplore.com/news/2024-05-copper-fast-electrify.html
Report shows copper can't be mined fast enough to electrify the US
Extractive mentality.
At least 80% of all copper ever mined is still avaialble for use.
Ummm ... THINK ! It's *IN USE* for OTHER stuff.
But fanatics never think .....
You just assumed again. Are you ever right about anything?
Yes, all of the time.
...
Bzzt.
<https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s101130050006>
Sustainable metal management exemplified by copper in the USA
C. Zeltner, H-P Bader, et al
Regional Environmental Change, v1 p31-46 (1999)
The copper fluxes of the 20th century have contributed to the formation of
two new ore deposits of the same order of magnitude as the currently still
available reservoir (90 million tons), i.e. copper stock in consumption
products (approx. 70 million tons) and in landfills (approx. 40 million
tons). The "landfill", therefore, contains copper whose potential use is
lost due to dilution. The long-term copper consumption stock is greater
than the short-term stock. Scenarios show that the current economically
mineable Cu-stocks will be exhausted in 30 to 50 years if a change in the
existing management system does not occur.
This is the classic paper on "copper wastage". You just assume most copper
...

That's right. Extraction mentality == just plum mentally lazy.

Of the approx 400 Mt of copper in landfill around the world
and about 40% is no harder to extract technically than mining.

But the vested interests... LOL.

The same guys that have been charging dimwits 5x for fuel in
the last 150 y because the engines are only ~20% efficient.
--
World Oil Statistics
The world consumes 35,442,913,090 barrels of oil as of the year 2016,
equivalent to 97,103,871 barrels per day. · Global oil consumption per
capita is 5 barrels ...
Oil Reserves: 1,650,585,140,000
Oil Consumption: 35,442,913,090
Reserves/Consumption: 47 <== years left i.e. 2016+47 == 2063
-- Worldometer
68hx.1808
2024-05-18 04:17:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Kym Horsell
Post by R Kym Horsell
Post by 68hx.1808
Post by R Kym Horsell
Post by 68hx.1808
Post by R Kym Horsell
Post by 68hx.1808
https://techxplore.com/news/2024-05-copper-fast-electrify.html
Report shows copper can't be mined fast enough to electrify the US
Extractive mentality.
At least 80% of all copper ever mined is still avaialble for use.
Ummm ... THINK ! It's *IN USE* for OTHER stuff.
But fanatics never think .....
You just assumed again. Are you ever right about anything?
Yes, all of the time.
...
Bzzt.
<https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s101130050006>
Sustainable metal management exemplified by copper in the USA
C. Zeltner, H-P Bader, et al
Regional Environmental Change, v1 p31-46 (1999)
The copper fluxes of the 20th century have contributed to the formation of
two new ore deposits of the same order of magnitude as the currently still
available reservoir (90 million tons), i.e. copper stock in consumption
products (approx. 70 million tons) and in landfills (approx. 40 million
tons). The "landfill", therefore, contains copper whose potential use is
lost due to dilution. The long-term copper consumption stock is greater
than the short-term stock. Scenarios show that the current economically
mineable Cu-stocks will be exhausted in 30 to 50 years if a change in the
existing management system does not occur.
This is the classic paper on "copper wastage". You just assume most copper
...
That's right. Extraction mentality == just plum mentally lazy.
Of the approx 400 Mt of copper in landfill around the world
and about 40% is no harder to extract technically than mining.
But the TOXINS/pathogens that would be released ... !!!

Oh, and you'd need a whole new tech to scrape the
stuff from the landfills. That's a lot more CO2 ...
Sebastian
2024-05-19 07:15:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by 68hx.1808
https://techxplore.com/news/2024-05-copper-fast-electrify.html
Report shows copper can't be mined fast enough to electrify the US
And that's not even the only thing that makes replacement of all vehicles
by EVs impossible. Of course those at the top who are driving the EV
mandates must be aware of this. Are they simply sticking their heads
in the sand, or do they fully intend to not replace every gasoline or
diesel-powered vehicle with a battery-powered one?

You might have heard propaganda about how cities should "prioritize
people over cars." Invariably, the propaganda advocates closing roads and
replacing them with bike trails and tram lines. The implication is clear:
You aren't expected to buy an EV, but rather to give up owning any private
transportation at all beyond a bicycle. Don't worry, if you keep your
social credit score up, you'll also be able to ride the tram, but air
travel will be strictly for elites.
Craig Butler
2024-05-20 14:21:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sebastian
by EVs impossible. Of course those at the top who are driving the EV
mandates must be aware of this. Are they simply sticking their heads
in the sand, or do they fully intend to not replace every gasoline or
diesel-powered vehicle with a battery-powered one?
The major factor in this is that Conservative politicians have repeatedly
maintained that Americans don't know how to make EV's because it's beyond
their abilities.
62hx.1708
2024-05-21 02:43:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig Butler
Post by Sebastian
by EVs impossible. Of course those at the top who are driving the EV
mandates must be aware of this. Are they simply sticking their heads
in the sand, or do they fully intend to not replace every gasoline or
diesel-powered vehicle with a battery-powered one?
The major factor in this is that Conservative politicians have repeatedly
maintained that Americans don't know how to make EV's because it's beyond
their abilities.
Um ... WHEN did they say that exactly ???

Thought so.

Americans can MAKE EVs perfectly well - hell, Tesla
is a US corp - the problem is the PRICE. Domestic
manufacture is plagued by $$$ regs and unions and
red-tape. The BATTERIES come almost entirely from
our enemy, China - and just ignore the slave labor
whydontcha.

Try to double, triple, quadruple the output in the
short term and a number of roadblocks appear.

In any case, the original thread was about whether
there was enough raw copper to mine in order to
meet the mandates imposed by a number of western
governments. Despite a few offering crappy little
excuses and/or expecting everyone to dumpster-dive
nasty old landfills, the answer is just "NO" - we
can't mine it fast enough. Any mandates need to be
pushed BACK about a decades ... and better add
some slack to the environmental regs affecting
those mines/smelters.

Recently I saw science news about some wunnerful
new catalyst that'll convert CO2 into more useful
hydrocarbons. Minor PROBLEM is that it used
iridium - basically the rarest metal on earth,
$4750/oz spot price, recent high around $6000.
Almost all there is came in on the dinosaur meteor.

Too much GreenVana shit is unrealizable.

Oh, and do NOT open those landfills - all sorts
of evil stuff in there. It'd cause massive
contamination. We'll have to wait for some
kind of sub-microBots that can dive in and
bring up JUST metals we want. 25 years ???

Oh, and you really messed-up the newsgroups.
Outcome-based "education" ? Fixed it for ya.

Cameron Braithwaite
2024-05-20 14:19:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by 68hx.1808
https://techxplore.com/news/2024-05-copper-fast-electrify.html
Report shows copper can't be mined fast enough to electrify the US
They won't have to mine it all because EV's are strictly for those who refuse
to kow tow to Big Oil and rich Muslims in the middle east.

They don't want you to own electric vehicles.
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